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Title: RCF #0003
Topic started: 10/07/03 10:34
Author: Adam
Total Replies: 12
Message:
The way that level progression currently works, Skilled and Highly Trained Professions get either +1 Overall ToHit each 3rd level or +1 Overall ToHit each snd level. This implies that rogue's and warrior's and like proffessions only get better at "hitting" an opponent as they increase in level. However, we know from reallity and heroic fiction, both of which this system is trying to model, that "hitting" is not the only thing that matters in combat. A rogue may only be able to survive on wit and reaction while a warrior may opt for devastating strikes or incredible accuracy. Currently, the model only allows for accuracy to increase as level progresses. It has come to my attention, from my current set of players, that this modle is incomplete, therefore, I offer this more complete model that does not sacrifice realism for playability, it merely enhance the modle currently at work whilest allowing more flexibility in character progression. The proposed chages are as follows:

Rather than the current +1 Overall ToHit, I propose the player choose between, +1 Overall ToHit, +1 Overall ToDam, +1 Overall ToParry, and +1 Overall Initiative Modifier at each lever that he would otherwise get a +1 Overall ToHit.

Why?
1) Flexibility in character progression.
2) Makes more sense then only ever getting better at hitting
3) Probably most important, due to the nature of ToHit, and the fact that it opperates on a static downwardly progressing scale, it is very likely that a character, upon reaching 6th level or 8th level, will not be able to benefit from the +1 Overall ToHit. Unlike the gravy skills taht are awarded at specific intervals, this +1 ToHit is integral and VERY important to the fighting classes. It constitutes the majority of what fighting classes will ever attain from level progression, and it is the very benchmark of excellence save additional attacks per round. Since additional attacks per round are attained each 6 or 8 levels, it is niether fair nor practical to argue that fighting classes still get that bonus. Never in the history of Dawn of Eana has a playing character ever attained more than one additonal attack per round from level progression. By allowing a choice between ToHit, ToDam, ToParry, and IM, we ensure that a fighter has impetus to grow beyond the 6th or 8th level. Hitpoints and the promise of an additiona attack that will never come is not enough.
4) It's easy to implement and is not game unbalanced.
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Replies:
10/07/03 10:48  - Michael Wagner

+1 Init modifier each round could really add up quick. At level 10, highly trained you could have a +5 init if I'm understanding this correctly. That's substantial.

Adam, is your group going to playtest this and see how these bonuses work out? I think the +1 damage bonus is fine though.


10/07/03 10:51  - Greg Crowe

Interesting. What you are proposing is essentially make the level-based +1 conform more to the form of the Weapon Specialization skill (+1 to hit, dam, or parry with a particular weapon). The only thing that I can see about this that would be a bit unbalancing would be the +'s to Init. But since without it this change would give us conformity with an existing feature, I say drop the potential Init bonus and leave it at choice of all To Hits, all Damages, or all Parries.


10/07/03 10:53  - Adam

Yes, I'm allowing it as of next week in my game. I'm more than happy to let the committe know how it works. As for the concern at 10th level, in my last RFC, I was told that considering what happens at tenth level is not practical since no one ever gets that high. I tend to agree, besides, before a +1 to IM really comes into play as excessive, you'd have to be 10th level as a Warrior or 15th level as a rogue. By that time, +5 IM would be slow compared to the storm giants and ice dragons you'd be fighting while sipping your latte frappa mocha conroy chino.


10/07/03 11:00  - Adam

I say that the IM is not such a big deal considering your enemies can do the same thing and the IM bonuses of high powered creatures tend to be pretty high, OR they are powerful in other ways that make being slow a fair compromise. By only taking into account weapon abilities, you ignore the fact that initiative plays a significant role in fighting prowess, thus doing a disservice to the character that chooses speed and finess over strength and defense. Further improving IM independent of SPEED is like uncanny combat reflexes or danger sense (spidey senses are tingling). Besides: Improved IM as a WS: +1 ToInit with <weapon> has been playtested and works quite well.


10/07/03 11:12  - Greg Crowe

Initiative also has a bearing on when a Mage gets to cast his spell. I don't think having skill at arms makes you any faster in relation to when everyone else goes, and I don't think the Mage should be punished that much for being untrained.

Besides, without the Init choice, the change you propose fits in with the form of WS that it is too sweet to pass up.


10/07/03 11:18  - Greg Crowe

Sorry, didn't see your last comment.

I can't see +1 to Init as a WS choice working at all well. It can get a bit complicated. I mean, what if he has the weapon in his hand during the init roll, but shortly thereafter he is disarmed? what if he's wielding the weapon in question but in an unusual manner? what if he's wielding it dual with a weapon in which he doesn't have a +1 init WS? What if the other weapon _does_ have a + to init? See? Far much more trouble than it's worth.


10/07/03 12:26  - Adam

The answer to the Mage issue is fairly simple as well. I am basing this, of course, on the use of Arcanix as the magic system, however it works with Bill Barnes' Spellsmith as well I believe. When employing Arcanix, Journeyman casters gain +1 Overall Spell Check per 3 levels and Master casters gain +1 Overall Spell Check per 2 levels. Same ratio as Skilled and Highly Trained respectively. SO, in my proposal, a Mage could choose +1 ToInit rahter than +1 Spell Check.

As you can see, this fits neatly into the existing paradigm.

To address the WS: +1 ToInit issue. It is far less complex in game play as you might assume.


10/07/03 14:30  - Chris Richards

I like the concept. Though I think it needs to be play tested.

This is really good for front line fighters. As it gives them a benefit once that max out at a 3 or better to hit.

A true spell caster would be untrained in the ways of combat and would not be able to take advantage of this progression anyway.

A fighter / caster (ie witch hunter) would get the benefit every 3rd level, but I doubt that person is going to focus on a plus to initive. The last two times I played a dual classed magic user, I used my blade (or gun in the case of my worlock) enough, that I wanted the bonus toHit.


11/14/03 11:17  - Kevin

Sorry to be jumping in late here. If you take a witch hunter (highly trained fighter, journeyman caster) you could get +1 to init every 2 levels as a fighter and every 3 levels as a caster and be +4 to init by 6th level and +9 by 12th level (Jag's final level when I stopped playing him). I think 10th level effects of the change are important as I have had a character reach 10th in two of the NM campaigns I played in. I think the +1 to init is overbalanced, but I like the option of +1 to parry and +1 to dam.


12/02/03 13:17  - Adam

You are missing something Kevin... The Overall +1 Tohit is ONLY for levels in physical training, not arcan training. Arcane training is already a specialization ONLY to +1 Spellcheck.


01/20/04 15:52  - Kevin

Sorry I didn't reply sooner I haven't had time to check the site lately.

OK, thanks for the clarification on the arcane side.

I still think the +1 to init would still be overbalanced. Everything else sounds OK.


01/26/04 12:36  - Adam

well, that's why i'm gonna play test it. i have a player or two that will really abuse this rule. it will give a fair representation of its power ramifications. I'll keep you posted.



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